"Ipaglaban mo nang puspusan ang pananampalataya. Panghawakan mong mabuti ang buhay na walang hanggan, dahil diyan ka tinawag ng Diyos nang ipahayag mo sa harap ng maraming saksi ang iyong pananalig kay Cristo." I Tim. 6:12

July 10, 2009

Christ's pre-existence?

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god and the word was god.”

In the beginning was the word

Lets read  Rom. 1:2-3 to find that the holy scriptures prove that the "word" is referring to God's "promise" to send his son, which he "announced" before:
"which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, concerning his son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh"

The term "word" in John 1:1 is not Christ himself but the "foreknowledge" or plan of God concerning Christ, lets read I pet. 1:20 that says,

"foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, he has been manifested in the last times for your sakes."

This pronouncement of apostle peter that Christ was "foreknown before the foundation of the world" explain the statement in the gospel according to John "in the beginning was the word"

Hence, what was there in the beginning was not Christ himself but God’s "word" or foreknowledge of him.

"foreknowledge" is defined by the dictionary as "knowledge of a thing before it happens or exists."(Webster new universal unabridged dictionary)

If Christ had already been existing before the foundation of the world, then there would not any need to "foreknow" him. Therefore the fact that Christ was foreknown before the foundation of the world disproves his so-called pre-existence.


The word was with God

The clause “the word was with God” only approves that god and the word are different from each other—that god is not the word and vice versa, being with god in the beginning. The word cannot be god in state of being because then it would appear that there are two gods—the god with whom the word was and the word itself. Lets read john 17:1,3 to prove this:

“…Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son, that your son also may glorify you,… And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”

Christ taught that the father is the only true God. Clearly, the true god, from whom the plan or thought to create Christ originated, is different from his plan.



And the word was God

So why then did apostle John state in john 1:1 that "the word was god"? 

This is to describe the quality of the word, which belonged to god. It is because god is almighty or powerful (gen. 35:11) and so are his words (Luke 1:37). thus, the "word was God" indeed, but not in the sense that the "word" is another divine being aside from god, but that it possesses the qualities and attributes of God

In john 1:1 the word "God" in the clause "the word was God" is used not as a noun but as an adjective. That is why in other renditions of the bible, such as Moffat and Godspeed, john 1:1 states: "the word was divine"

It is supported by bible scholars, one book says about this matter:

“First, it should be noted that text itself shows that the word was ‘with god’, hence could not ‘be god’, that is, be the almighty god. (note also verse 2, which would be unnecessary if verse 1 actually showed the word to be god.)
Additionally, the word for ‘god’ (greek, the-os) in its second occurrence in the verse is without the definite article ‘the’(greek, ho). Regarding this fact, Bishop Westcott coproducer of the noted wescott and hort greek text of the Christian scripture says: it is necessarily without the article (the’os not ho the’os) in as much as it describes the nature of the word, and does not identify his person.”
(quoted from page 116 of AN IDOM-BOOK OF NEW TESTAMENT GREEK, by professor C.F.D Moule, 1953,ed.)” (AID TO BIBLE UNDERSTANDING, p.919)

Another reason given by bible scholars why the word could not be God in state of being is that, in original greek, the term for God (theos) in the clause “the word was God” is not preceded by the definite article “the” (ho) and hence it functions as an adjective.


And the word became flesh

What does the clause "and the word became flesh" mean then in john 1:14

The "word" which was only a thought or plan in the beginning was fulfilled when Mary gave birth to Jesus (gal.4:4) who is "truly man" (I Tim. 2:5) or "indeed flesh" (gen. 6:3)
We should not forget that it was the "word" which became flesh and not god himself. John 1:1,14 therefore does not in any way teach that God became man or that Christ is God incarnated.



Proverbs 8:22-23 “the lord possessed me at the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I have been established from everlasting, from the beginning, before there was ever an earth.”

Among others, they contend that even before the creation of the world, Christ already existed and was father’s co-creator of everything. Although it is not stated in proverbs 8:22-23 that Christ was referred to as being possessed by God before the world was created, still others uses these verses to prove Jesus pre-existence. 

Nowhere in the entire cited chapter of proverbs is there any mention of his name, nor is he unequivocally identified as the one possessed by god in the beginning? What is categorically stated in the preceding verses of that same chapter of proverbs as the one possessed by God in the beginning?

ANSWER: It is the WISDOM, lets read Prov. 8:1, 11-12
“Does not wisdom cry out? And understanding lift up her voice?... For wisdom is better than rubies, and all the things one may desire cannot be compare with her. ‘I wisdom, dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge and discretion’.”

It was the wisdom that God possessed in the beginning and not a pre-existent Christ as alleged by believers of his deity. Wisdom must have been already existing before the creation of all things because it was the wisdom that God used in creating them. Let’s read Prov. 3:19-20 that says,

“The lord by wisdom founded the earth; by understanding he established the heavens; by his knowledge the depths were broken up and clouds drop down the dew.”

However, those who believe in Christ’s pre-existence argue that he is referred to in the bible as the wisdom of God, citing I Corinthians 1:24 as basis. Thus, according to them, Christ is the wisdom that was already existing and which God possessed in the beginning as mentioned in the verses in question. There is no denying the truth that the bible refers to Christ as being the wisdom of God, but to conclude from this fact that Christ is the wisdom of god possessed in the beginning is grossly erroneous.
Why we can say that it is erroneous? And in what sense is Christ the wisdom of God?
Let us cite I Corinthians 1:24 and Apostle Paul’s clarification in verse 30 of that same chapter of his letter:

“But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God… But of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from god—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.”

Apostle Paul clearly states that Christ is the power and wisdom of God for us to be sanctified and be redeemed from sin, or in other words, Christ is the wisdom of god unto salvation. Hence, he is not the wisdom referred to in the book of proverbs, which God used in creating all things. 
With their allegation that Christ had pre-existence comes their allegation that he was not created but was co-creator with the Father. But is this biblical? How did Christ come into existence as described by the bible?

Lets read Matt. 1:20 that says,

“But when he had considered this, behold an angel of the lord appeared to him in a dream, saying ‘Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for that which has been conceived in her is of the holy spirit.”

Christ was conceived in his mother’s womb. The true God could have been conceived by any human mother for he is “from everlasting to everlasting” (Ps. 90:2) and therefore he was not created. And granting, without conceding but just for the sake of argument, that Christ is also true God pre-existing with the father, it would be two true gods—one true God who is the creator and another true God who was created. That would be, to say the least, not only unbiblical but utterly absurd as well. 

If Jesus was created and is not the creator or is not co-creator of the father, what is other evidence to prove it?

God planned even before he made the world that there would be a Christ because he intended that all things he would created would be for Christ to be mediated by him (Col. 1:16-17). But even then, the truth remains that Christ is one among God’s creation and did not pre-exist as the father’s co-creator. God said it all when he declared:

“I am your lord, your savior; I am the one who created you. I am the lord the creator of all things. I alone stretched out the heavens; when I made the earth, no one helped me.” Isaiah 44:24

Christ could not have existed in the beginning of creation as god’s co-creator because god declared that he alone stretched out the heavens and that when he made the earth, no one helped him. Therefore, the belief that Christ pre-existed as god and co-creator of the father is contrary to the teaching of the bible.


9 comments:

  1. Hebrews 10:5-7
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

    “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
    But a body You have prepared for Me.
    6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
    You had no pleasure.
    7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
    In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
    To do Your will, O God.’”

    Here is one good proof of the Son's pre-existence:
    1) According to the texts, who is the one speaking?
    2) Where was he speaking?
    3) When did this conversation take place?

    ReplyDelete
  2. The verses you presented does not even mentioned in this post. I need not to answer your questions, i will just quote the same verses but from another translation:

    That is why, when Christ[a] came into the world, he said to God,

    “You did not want animal sacrifices or sin offerings.
    But you have given me a body to offer.
    6 You were not pleased with burnt offerings
    or other offerings for sin.
    7 Then I said, ‘Look, I have come to do your will, O God—
    as is written about me in the Scriptures.’”

    Hebrews 10:5-7
    New Living Translation (NLT)


    I dont think this is a "one good proof" of Christ's pre existence because in the first place, he has no pre existence.

    When Christ came in to the world, God gave him a body TO OFFER to REDEEM us from our sins, because God did not want animal sacrifices or burnt sacrifices and offerings for that. That what was meant when he says "but you have given me a body to offer".

    Lets read Titus 2:4 to clarify this:

    "who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good."

    The verses you showed is not about proving his pre-existence, but is about the offerings and sacrifices for sin.

    ReplyDelete
  3. The Greek is, “Wherefore coming into the world, he saith.”

    Hebrews 10:5-7
    Good News Translation (GNT)
    5 For this reason, when Christ was about to come into the world, he said to God:

    “You do not want sacrifices and offerings,
    but you have prepared a body for me.
    6 You are not pleased with animals burned whole on the altar
    or with sacrifices to take away sins.
    7 Then I said, ‘Here I am,
    to do your will, O God,
    just as it is written of me in the book of the Law.’”
    THE SON IS TALKING TO THE FATHER BEFORE HE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN. THIS HAPPENED AFTER ALL THE OLD TESTAMENT PROPHECIES WERE WRITTEN ABOUT HIM BEFORE BEING BORN BY MARY. THIS IS A CLEAR EVIDENCE OF CHRIST'S PRE-EXISTENCE PRIOR TO HIS INCARNATION.

    ReplyDelete
  4. The problem here is your understanding in the verse that says "when Christ was about to come into the world". you believe that Christ has pre existence so you understood it as if the pre-existent powerless God-Christ who cannot make a body for himself, was offered by the Almighty God the Father with a human body for him to dwell or whatsoever.

    But the truth is, Christ did not have pre-existence, he was born human through the promise (john 1:14), the son is talking to the Father AFTER he came into this world, not before he came into this world:


    "That is why, when Christ[a] came into the world, he said to God," NLV


    that's the disadvantage of private interpretation of the bible. so next time, dont practice it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    2. IF CHRIST IS NOT PRE-EXIST, THEN WHO IS "HE" IN JOHN 1:2 ?


      JOHN 1:2 - "HE WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD"

      Delete
    3. He is wrong rendition in John 1:2, the right rendition is "This" because in greek used as "houtos".

      Delete
    4. https://biblehub.com/text/john/1-2.htm


      Delete
  5. pero kapatid, paano po iexplain ang statement na "when Christ was about to come into the world"?
    gusto ko lang po malaman paano iexplain, nag.aaral kasi po ako ngayon ng mga biblical verses.

    ReplyDelete

RULES ARE STRICTLY BEING IMPLEMENTED.
COMMENTS THAT VIOLATE RULES ARE DELETED.

1. Comments should be related to the topic posted
2. No flooding
3. No cursing and name calling (kultoliko, ADDict, Iglesia ni Manalo, etc)
4. No posting of any kind of advertisement/promotion
5. No debates/arguments

You can ask, suggest, answer or react to an article. Discussion or sharing of knowledge is appreciated, not to be confused with debates/arguments.