Purgatory?

What does the Catholic Church teaches after a person dies?

"According to Catholic belief, immediately after death, a person undergoes judgment in which the soul's eternal destiny is specified. Some are eternally united with God in Heaven, often envisioned as a paradise of eternal joy, where Theosis is completed and one experiences the beatific vision of God. Conversely, others reach a state called Hell, that is eternal separation from God often envisioned as a fiery place of punishment,"

"According to Catholic doctrine, some souls are not sufficiently free from the temporal effects of sin and its consequences to enter the state of heaven immediately, nor are they so sinful as to be destined for hell either. Such souls, ultimately destined to be united with God in heaven, must first endure purgatory— a state of purification." source: wikipedia

The only question with this doctrine of the Catholic Church is that, is this BIBLICAL?

Nov.1 is coming again, in the Philippines:

"this day, called "Undas", "Todos los Santos" (literally "All Saints"), and sometimes "Araw ng mga Patay" (approximately "Day of the dead") is observed as All Souls' Day. This day and the one before and one after it is spent visiting the graves of deceased relatives, where prayers and flowers are offered, candles are lit and the graves themselves are cleaned, repaired and repainted. Living relatives of the dead spend the day & evening at the grave site where food and drinks are served like a picnic." source: wikipedia

In the Philippines, it should not be called "Araw ng mga Patay (Day of the Dead)" but to "Feast for the dead". Its very obvious, they go to the cemetery not only because of the reason of visiting the deceased relative but also to make fun (party-party!^^) like having a picnic, reunion, gambling and even drinking liquors and so on. (But now it is not allowed in the cemetery, while still some does it secretly)

As what ive read in a discussion:

Roland Nagtalon wrote:

Chuck, Chibog na lang ang uso ngayon sa sementeryo. bawal na alak at sugal.
believeme man, you will be apprehended. times have changed....for the better.:)


Reutcek Basilio wrote:

Walang "undas" dito pare, unbills" (bayarin) madalas hehe. Kamusta ka na? Crowded parin ba sa mga simenteryo? Ang sarap noon I remember pumupunta ako sa sementeryo para makipag reunion sa mga pinsan ko, uminom, magsugal at tumingin ng mga cuties haha pero siempre pagkatapos magdasal. Ingat ka lang pare, nice to hear from you again. source: yahoo groups

History

"Theologians and other Christians then developed the doctrine regarding purgatory over the centuries, leading to the definition of the formal doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church on the matter (as distinct from the legendary descriptions) at the Second Council of Lyon (1274), the Council of Florence (1438–1445), and the Council of Trent (1545–63)." source: wikipedia

History according to some books

"Purgatory had been invented by Rome in A.D 593 but it remained a very unpopular doctrine for many centuries. When Mass came into being however, these two innovations of the Roman Church became inseparably connected with each other. The question came up in Roman circles: 'Can Mass of an alleged infinite spiritual value, deliver the souls in Purgatory?' The Pope soon accepted this new idea and the Mass in connection with Purgatory was born. Today our readers know what a financial success the marriage of Mass and Purgatory has been. There is not a single product in the world toady that has been more successful financially than these two religious doctrines, mass and Purgatory" Lucien Vinet, I was a Priest, pp. 43-44


"The Idea of Purgatory finds its roots in Buddhism and other ancient religious systems, long before the existence of the Roman Catholic Church. Evidences of its introduction into Christian thought are found in some of the writings of the early Church Fathers, as far back as the third and fourth centuries of the Christian Era, but it had no officially recognized place until the time of Gregory I..." Dreyer and Weller p. 107


"... from the time of Augustine onwards in the West the element of purgatorial discipline becomes much more obtrusive. Augustine himself is by no means dogmatic on the subject of purgatory. In The City of God, he mentions the theory that the spirits of the dead will be purified by fire between death and last judgment, and he comments: "I do not reject this theory, for it may be true'..." A Dictionary of Christian Theology p.160


"...Tertullian, in the second century, writes: 'We make obligations for the dead on their anniversary' (that is, we offer up the Holy sacrifice of the Mass). 'If you seek from the Scriptures the precept for this, and other practices, you will not find; tradition is the author of it, custom confirms it and faith observes it'..." Reverend Clement H. Crock p. 271


"The Catholic Church has defined the existence of Purgatory in the Decree of union drawn up at the Council of Florence in 1439, and again at the Council of trent..." Reverend Bertrand Conway p. 393



Biblical Teachings

What does the holy Scripture say about the dead? What happens to the soul when a man dies? Can the dead profit from anything that the living do for them(prayers, offer foods and so on)?

“The living know they will die, but the dead know nothing. Dead people have no more reward, and people forget them. After people are dead, they can no longer love or hate or envy. They will never again share in what happens here on earth.” Eccl. 9:5-6

The dead knows NOTHING. Meaning, even if you offer a millions of prayers, candles, flowers, and so on, it will never profit or share whatever happens here on earth.

What really happens when a man dies?

“His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” Psalms 146:6

Upon cessation of breath, the thoughts of a dying man perish; he returns to his earth, a fulfillment of what God had decreed;

“…Later you will return to the ground, because you were taken from it.
You are dust, and when you die, you will return to the dust." Gen. 3:19

What happens to the spirit of a man upon cessation of breath?

“You will turn back into the dust of the earth again, but your spirit will return to God who gave it.” Eccl. 12:7

What is the proof of the scripture that does not teach the immortality of the soul?

“For our soul is bowed down to the dust; Our body clings to the ground.”
Psalms 44:25

We can see that when a person died, he then knows nothing and cant do anything because he is already dead. His body is already in the grave, so his thoughts also perish as what happened to him. We should remember that a person is consist of: body, soul and spirit. Both soul and body cleave to the ground while the spirit returns to God.

Meaning to say, the belief that after a person died, he will immediately be in heaven, hell or purgatory is WRONG. It is indeed unbiblical!

And most importantly, the souls are not with us here on earth as many alleged, they called it "Ghosts" as they are still in the purgatory. Ghosts are product of our imagination, and ghost related experiences have scientific explanations and even though some events still cant answered by science, it doesnt mean that it is already true.

Why? Different species, organisms and so on are discovered as time goes by, meaning to say, there are still living things that are not yet discovered, but it doesnt mean that THEY DONT EXIST.

INC doesnt believe ghosts, but "evil spirits", i think yes, because even in the bible we can see that there are people possessed by the demons.

By the way, it is also a self explanatory, that if its true that when a person dies, he will immediately go to hell or heaven, then what is the so called JUDGMENT DAY in the bible?

Another thing, if dead people really needs our prayers for them to go to heaven, as they have sinned, what will happen if all "purgatory believers" died? Who then will PRAY FOR THEIR SOULS EVERY YEAR? Does that mean that they are all destined to hell?^^

How was Trinity created?

This is i think the deepest research ive done in my history of blogging^^ Finally, we will now know how they formulated TRINITY. Finding how trinity evolved is not so easy, i used 3 Encyclopedia Books (@1971 & @1974) for subjects: "Trinity", "Christianity" and "Creed". I also made a research here in the internet. (Note: if ive written a statement here that is not accurate, you can correct me.^^)

This will be a long post, but if you dont mind, please read them all, for us to be enlightened.

Let's start!


What is Trinity?

"The Christian doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three divine persons (Greek: ὑποστάσεις): the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. The three persons are distinct yet coexist in unity, and are co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial (Greek: ὁμοούσιοι)." source: wikipedia

What religions believe in Trinity?

"Trinitarianism, belief in the Trinity, is a mark of Roman Catholicism, Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy as well as of the "mainstream traditions" arising from the Protestant Reformation, such as Anglicanism, Baptist, Methodism, Lutheranism and Presbyterianism. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church describes the Trinity as "the central dogma of Christian theology". source: wikipedia


Is Trinity Biblical?

All of us knows that the answer is no. Church authorities knows and confesses that it is really not biblical. Read all Encyclopedia books in the world and you cannot find that "Trinity" can be seen in the bible, and that it is explicitly taught in the bible. We cannot see the word "Trinity" in any bible translations and versions.


When this doctrine showed?

All of us knows, it showed only in the 4th century, in 325 A.D, First Council of Nicaea. (note: after the death of the apostles)

Evolution of Belief

Apostles creed is said to be older than Nicene Creed(325 A.D), some says it dates back on the 3rd century (source: ehow.com) other says it dates back on 2nd century (source: google) and says it is the oldest one (source: reformed.org).

Apostles Creed

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.


Nicene Creed (325 A.D)

We believe in one God the Father All-sovereign, maker of all things.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father, only-begotten, that is, of the substance of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made, things in heaven and things on the earth; who for us men and for our salvation came down and was made flesh, and became man, suffered, and rose on the third day, ascended into the heavens, and is coming to judge living and dead.

And in the Holy Spirit.

And those that say 'There was when he was not,' and, 'Before he was begotten he was not,' and that, 'He came into being from what-is-not,' or those that allege, that the son of God is 'Of another substance or essence' or 'created,' or 'changeable' or 'alterable,' these the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes.


Nicene Creed also called Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed (381 A.D)

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven.

By the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended in heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father.

With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.


Athanasian Creed also called Quicunque vult

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith.
Which Faith, except a man keep whole and integral, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

Now the Catholic Faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity.
Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance.

For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.

For such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.

The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, the Holy Ghost uncreate; the Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet, there are not three eternals, but one eternal.

As also there are not three uncreated, nor three incomprehensibles; but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible.

So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty.
And yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise, the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Ghost is Lord.

And yet there are not three Lords, but one Lord.

For, as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord; so we are forbidden by the Catholic religion to say there be three Gods or three Lords.

The Father is made by none, neither created nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father, not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.

And in this Trinity none is before or after the other.

None is greater or less than another, but the whole three Persons are co-equal and co-eternal together.

So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped.

He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary unto eternal salvation that he believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ is God and man. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the world; and Man of the substance of His Mother, born into the world.

Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Godhead as touching His Manhood.

Who, although He be God, and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of Person.
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ.

Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead.

He ascended into heaven; He sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their works. And they that have done good shall go into everlasting life, and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.

This, then, is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

source: thecatholictreasurechest.com

See those differences?

The beliefs in the past were not stable, if you will look what was on Apostles Creed, it is simple as accepting God as the Father Almighty. On Nicene Creed (325) the creation or formulation of the Trinity began, but as you can see it doesnt say more about the Holy Spirit. On Nicene Creed (381) on the other hand, Christ was "incarnated" and was "made man" instead of saying "born on Virgin Mary", while the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. On Athanasian Creed, a much detailed beliefs, said that the Holy Spirit then is "of the Son" and "of the Father" instead of "proceeds from the Father" only.



Origin of beliefs

Antiochene school vs. Alexandrian school

"Historically in the Alexandrian school of thought (fashioned on the Gospel of John) Jesus Christ is the eternal Logos who already possesses unity with the Father before the act of Incarnation. In contrast, the Antiochian school views Christ as a single, unified human person apart from his relationship to the divine." source: wikipedia

Antiochene school

"From the beginning of the church different interpretations of the person of Jesus have existed alongside one another. The gospel according to Mark, for example, understands Jesus as a Man upon whom the Holy Spirit descends at the baptism in the Jordan and who is declared the Son of God through the voice of God from clouds. All later Christological attempts of the theological school of Antioch have followed this line of interpretation. They proceed from the humanity of Jesus and view his humanity divinity in his consciousness of God, founded in the divine mission that was imposed upon him by God through the infusion of the holy Spirit."

Alexandrian school

"Another view is expressed by the Gospel to john, which regards the figure of Jesus Christ as the divine Logos become flesh. Here, the divinity of the person of Jesus is understood not as endowment of the man Jesus with a divine power but rather as a result of the descent of the divine logos--a pre-existent human being- into the worl: Logos taking on human body of flesh so as to be realized in history. This view was adopted bu the cathedral school of Alexandrian theology. "

"Thus, it was that the struggle to understand the figures of Jesus Christ created a rivalry between the theologies of Antioch and Alexandria. Both schools had a wide sphere of influence, not only among the contemporary clergy but also in monasticism and among the laity. Characteristically, Nestorianism (a heresy founded in the 5th century) with its strong emphasis upon the human aspects of Jesus Christ, arose from the Antiochene school, whereas Monophysitism (a heresy founded in the 5th century) with its one sided stress upon the divine nature of Christ, emerged from the Alexandrian school of theology."


Gospel According to John vs. Gospel According to Mark

"According to the theology of the Gospel According to John, the divinity of Jesus Christ constituted the departure point for understanding his person and efficacy. The Gospel According to Mark, however, did not proceed from a theology of incarnation but instead understood the baptism of Jesus Christ as the adoption of the man Jesus Christ into the Sonship of God, accomplished through the descent of the Holy Spirit. The situation became further aggravated by the conceptions of the special personal character of the manifestation of God developed by a way of the historical figure of Jesus Christ; the Holy Spirit was viewed not as a personal figure but as a power and appeared graphically only in the form of the dove and thus receded, to a large extent, in the Trinitarian speculation." Encyclopedia


NOTE: The origin of beliefs about the Trinity is really difficult to trace because there are many influences about the concept of God. I will cite some examples, that influenced those people whom formulated Trinity:

• Neoplatonism/Platonism "is the philosophy of Plato or the name of other philosophical systems considered closely derived from it." source: wikipedia

• Hellenism "is a term used to describe the spread of ancient Greek culture, and, to a lesser extent, language." source: wikipedia

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Arian Controversy

"The controversy over Arianism began to rise in the late 3rd century and extended over the greater part of the 4th century and involved most church members, simple believers, priests and monks as well as bishops, emperors and members of Rome's imperial family. Yet, such a deep controversy within the Church could not have materialized in the 3rd and 4th centuries without some significant historical influences providing the basis for the Arian doctrines." source: wikipedia

Who is Arius? and what Arius believe?

"Arius belonged to the Antiochene school of theology, which placed strong emphasis upon the historicity of the man Jesus Christ. Arius was interested in maintaining a formal understanding of the oneness of God. In defense of the oneness of God, he was obliged to dispute the sameness of essence of the Son and the Holy Spirit with God the father, as stressed by theologians of the Neoplatonically influenced Alexandrian school." Encyclopedia


Arius' concern

"The basic concern of Arius was and remained disputing the oneness of essence of the Son and the Holy Spirit with God the Father, in order to preserve the oneness of God. The Son, thus became a"second God" under God the Father--he is God only in figurative sense, for he belongs on the side of creatures, even if at their highest summit. Here Arius joined an older tradition of Christology, which had already played a role in Rome in the 2nbd century--namely, the so called Angel-Christology. The descent of the Son to earth was understood as the descent to earth of the highest prince of the angels, who became man in Jesus Christ; he is to some extent identified with an angel prince Michael.

In old angel-christology the concern is already expressed to preserve oneness of God, the inviolable distinguishing mark of the Jewish and Christian faiths over against all paganism. The Son is not himself God, but as highest of the created spiritual beings he is moved as close as possible to God. Arius joined this tradition with the same aim--defending the idea of the oneness of the Christian concept of God against all reproaches that Christianity introduces a new, sublime form of polytheism." Encyclopedia



First Council of Nicaea (Nicene Creed 325 A.D)

"By 325, the controversy had become significant enough that the Emperor Constantine called an assembly of bishops, the First Council of Nicaea, which condemned Arius' doctrine and formulated the original Nicene Creed of 325." source: wikipedia

TRUE: the purpose of having the "First Council of Nicaea" is because of Arius' controversy, and it is in that time the doctrine of the trinity born. They say the council just DEFINED the teachings of the church, but agree about the formulation of the doctrine.

What is FORMULATION?
The formulation of something such as a policy or plan is the process of creating or inventing it. source: dictionary.reverso.net

What happened in the first council?

"The Nicene Creed's central term, used to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son, is Homoousios, or Consubstantiality, meaning "of the same substance" or "of one being". (The Athanasian Creed is less often used but is a more overtly anti-Arian statement on the Trinity.) The focus of the Council of Nicaea was the divinity of Christ.

Arius taught that Jesus Christ was divine and was sent to earth for the salvation of mankind but that Jesus Christ was not equal to the Father (infinite, primordial origin) and to the Holy Spirit (giver of life). Under Arianism, Christ was instead not consubstantial with God the Father since both the Father and the Son under Arius were made of "like" essence or being but not of the same essence or being.

Ousia is essence or being, in Eastern Christianity, and is the aspect of God that is completely incomprehensible to mankind and human perception. It is all that subsists by itself and which has not its being in another, God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit all being uncreated.

According to the teaching of Arius, the preexistent Logos and thus the incarnate Jesus Christ was a created being; that only the Son was directly created and begotten by God the Father, before ages, but was of a distinct, though similar, essence or substance from the Creator; his opponents argued that this would make Jesus less than God, and that this was heretical. Much of the distinction between the differing factions was over the phrasing that Christ expressed in the New Testament to express submission to God the Father. The theological term for this submission is kenosis.

This Ecumenical council declared that Jesus Christ was a distinct being of God in existence or reality (hypostasis), which the Latin fathers translated as persona. Jesus was God in essence, being and or nature (ousia), which the Latin fathers translated as substantia.

Constantine is believed to have exiled those who refused to accept the Nicean creed—Arius himself, the deacon Euzoios, and the Libyan bishops Theonas of Marmarica and Secundus of Ptolemais—and also the bishops who signed the creed but refused to join in condemnation of Arius, Eusebius of Nicomedia and Theognis of Nicaea." source: wikipedia



Continuing Controversy

The Arian Controversy doesnt end in the First Council, and about the formula of the Nicene Creed on the relationship of the Father and the Son, that's why there are more councils convened because many disputed the formula:

• Synods of Antioch 264-269, councils rejected the term homoousios
• Egyptian Council of Alexandria (318 or 319).
• Council of the party of Alexander of Alexandria at Nicomedia (c. 325).
• Council of the party of Alexander of Alexandria at Antioch (325).
• Nicaea (more than 300 bishops) (325).
• Church trial of Eustathius of Antioch at Antioch (c. 330).
• Council of Nicomedia (250 bishops) (c. 335).
• Church trial of Athanasius of Alexandria at Tyre (335).
• Council of Jerusalem (335).
• Church trial of Marcellus of Ancyra at Constantinople (336).
• Church trial of Athanasius of Alexandria at Antioch (338).
• Council of Antioch (Council of the Dedication) (90 bishops) (341)
• Another Council of Antioch (341).
• Western Council of Rome (342).
• Mostly Western Council of Sardica (342 or 343).
• Eastern Council of Philippopolis (342 or 343).
• Eastern Council of Antioch (344).
• Regional Council of Jerusalem.
• Mostly Western Council of Mediolanum (345).
• Mostly Western Council of Mediolanum (347).
• Council of Sirmium (347).
• Egyptian Council of Alexandria (c. 351).
• Council of Sirmium and church trial of Photinus at Sirmium (351).
• Council of Arelate (353).
• Mostly Western Council of Mediolanum (more than 300 bishops) (355).
• Council of Sirmium (357).
• Council of Ancyra (358).
• Fourth Council of Sirmium (359).
• Western Council of Ariminum (about 300 or more than 400 bishops) (359)
• Eastern Council of Seleucia (about 160 bishops) (359).
• Council of the Homoians at Nike (c. 359).
• First Council of Constantinople (360) (360).
• Church trial of Eunomius of Cyzicus at Constantinople (c. 360).
• Church trial of Eustathius of Sebaste at Gangra.
• Council of the Anomoeans in Constantinople (c. 361).
• Local council at Constantinople (c. 361).
• Council of Antioch (361).
• Council of the Anomoeans in Constantinople (c. 363).
• Council of the party of Theodosius of Lydia (c. 363 or 364).
• Local council at Antioch (c. 381).
• Council of Constantinople (381 or 383).
• Council of Toledo (Of the churches in Hispania) (589).

source: wikipedia


Formulas (about the relationship of God the father and Christ) debated for the doctrine:

• Homoousia- the Son is of the same substance as the Father, i.e. both uncreated.
• Homoiousia- the Son is of a similar substance to the Father.
• Homoia- the Son is similar to the Father, either "in all things" or "according to the scriptures," without speaking of substance.
• Heteroousia- the Son is of a different substance from the Father, i.e. created.
• Marcellus of Ancyra and Photinus of Sirmium- Christ was a mere man.

source: wikipedia



Second Ecumenical Council also called First Council of Constantinople

(Nicene Creed 381 A.D)

"In 381, at the Second Ecumenical Council in Constantinople, a group of mainly Eastern bishops assembled and accepted the Nicene Creed of 381,which was supplemented in regard to the Holy Spirit, as well as some other changes. This is generally considered the end of the dispute about the Trinity and the end of Arianism among the Roman, non-Germanic peoples." source: wikipedia
"The Council of Nicaea did not end the Arian controversy which it had been called to clarify. By 327, Emperor Constantine I had begun to regret the decisions that had been made at the Nicene Council. He granted amnesty to the Arian leaders and exiled Athanasius because of Eusebius of Nicomedia. Even during numerous exiles, Athanasius continued to be a vigorous defender of Nicene Christianity against Arianism. Athanasius then famously said "Athanasius against the world". The Cappadocian Fathers also took up the torch; their Trinitarian discourse was influential in the council at Constantinople.

Up until about 360, theological debates mainly dealt with the divinity of the Son, the 2nd person of the Trinity. However, because the Council of Nicaea had not clarified the divinity of the Holy Spirit, the 3rd person of the Trinity, it became a topic of debate."


As a New Version of Nicene Creed 325 A.D

"This council condemned Arianism which began to die out with more condemnations at a council of Aquileia by Ambrose of Milan in 381. With the discussion of Trinitarian doctrine now developed and well under agreement to orthodox and biblical understanding, it led to Christology, which would be the topic of the Council of Ephesus of 431 and the Council of Chalcedon of 451. At the Council of Chalcedon (451) a new version of the Nicene Creed was produced and attributed to this council of 381."

"The version that became attributed to the council of 381 added an explicit statement of the Father's generation of the Son 'before all ages', a mention of the Virgin Mary, and a full article on the Holy Spirit, describing Him as "the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, and Who spoke through the prophets". The statement of proceeding from the Father is seen as significant because it established that the Holy Spirit must be of the same being (ousia) as God the Father. This gave explicit expression to the concept of the Trinity." source: wikipedia



Athanasian Creed

"The most likely time frame is in the late fifth or early sixth century AD – at least 100 years after Athanasius. The theology of the creed is firmly rooted in the Augustinian tradition, using exact terminology of Augustine's On the Trinity (published 415 AD)." source: wikipedia

"Thus, each person of the Trinity is described as uncreated (increatus), limitless (Immensus), eternal (æternus), and omnipotent (omnipotens). While ascribing the divine attributes and divinity to each person of the Trinity, thus avoiding subordinationism, the first half of the Athanasian Creed also stresses the unity of the three persons in the one Godhead, thus avoiding a theology of tritheism. Furthermore, although one God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct from each other. For the Father is neither made nor begotten; the Son is not made but is begotten from the Father; the Holy Spirit is neither made nor begotten but proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque)." source: wikipedia

Athanasian creed is believed to be an account of Athanasius, the great defender of the doctrine trinity, but it came to question by scholars and then believed that he is not the author of it. And the origin of the creed is untraceable, it is estimated to be in existence between late fifth or early sixth century.

Athanasian Creed contains more detailed beliefs about the concept of their God, if you will compare that to Original Nicene Creed 325 A.D and to Nicene Creed 381 A.D. If you also noticed, it is in this creed, said that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son (filioque), and contradicts the Nicene Creed 381 A.D which is stated that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father.

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Development of the doctrine Trinity

As we may notice, this doctrine only showed in the Nicene Creed 325 A.D, the next formulation dated on Nicene Creed 381 A.D that resulted many debates about the relationship of God the Father to Christ, and to define about the Holy Spirit. It took them 56 years formulating (other words: CREATE or INVENT) this doctrine. And the idea of filioque, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son also, only showed in the Athanasian Creed (time frame is in the late fifth or early sixth century AD) means the complete "definition" (as they claim) or FORMULATION of the doctrine trinity took 100 years and more!



Key People on the development of the doctrine Trinity

• Athanasius
• Church Fathers
• Augustine
• Cappadocian Fathers
• Tertullian "a Latin theologian who wrote in the early 3rd century, is credited with using the words "Trinity", "person" and "substance" to explain that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are "one in essence—not one in Person". source: wikipedia

and etc.



What they say about the formulation of the doctrine

On Platonism/Neoplatonism
"Platonism influenced Christianity through Clement of Alexandria and Origen, and the Cappadocian Fathers. St. Augustine was heavily influenced by Platonism as well, which he encountered through the Latin translations of Marius Victorinus of the works of Porphyry and/or Plotinus." source: wikipedia

"In the Johannine understanding, Christ as the logos, under the influence of Neoplatonic Logos philosophy, became the subject of a speculative theology; there thus developed a speculative interest in the relationship of the oneness of God to the triplicity of his manifestations." Encyclopedia


On Hellenism
"Hellenistic thinkers, who influenced Christian theologians, had already been attracted by the emphasis in later Judaism on monotheism and transcendence. this tendency was sketched out earlier in Plato and later Stoicism, but it came to its mature development in Neoplatonism in the 3rd centuryA.D. In the first century Philo of Alexandria had interpreted the old testament concept of God in terms of the logos idea of Hellenistic philosophy, but this Hellenization led to a characteristic tension that was to dominate the entire further history of ideas." Encyclopedia

"During the 19th century, protestant historians, notably F.C Baur and Adolf von Harnack, sought to show that the Trinity was a result of "Hellenization of the gospel" while Friedrich Schleiermacher declared that a species of modalism was the only meaningful version of the doctrine. " Encyclopedia

"Initially, both the requirements of the monotheism inherited from the Old Testament and the implications of the need to interpret biblical teaching to Greco-Roman paganism seemed to demand that the divine Christ as the Word or Logos be seen as subordinate to the Supreme Deity. An alternate solution was to interpret the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three modes of the self-disclosure one God, but not as distinct within the being of God itself." Encyclopedia

“It was when Christianity spread out into pagan world that the idea of jesus as a savior God emerged.” (The meaning of the dead Sea scrolls)


On Nicene Creed 325 A.D
"Under Constantine's influence, this belief was expressed by the bishops in what would be known thereafter as the Nicene Creed." source: wikipedia

"The Emperor carried out his earlier statement: everybody who refused to endorse the Creed would be exiled." source: wikipedia

"In fact, Constantine had little theological understanding of the issues at stake, and did not particularly care which view of Christ's nature prevailed so long as it resulted in a unified church." source: wikipedia

"Saint Athanasius, who was a participant in the Council, stated that the bishops were forced to use this terminology, which is not found in Scripture, because the Biblical phrases that they would have preferred to use were claimed by the Arians to be capable of being interpreted in what the bishops considered to be a heretical sense." source: wikipedia

“The council could not agree and after two years, impatient at the delay, the emperor Constantine appeared and addressed the assembly, ordering them to agree on the divinity of Christ…” (Challenge of a liberal Faith)
 
“Once this “Nicene Creed” had been publicly signed by all the bishops and promulgated by Constantine, it became the official creed for all Christians. To deny the divinity of outside of the Christian community and was a crime against the state.” (The emerging Church: Part one)


"The victor at Nicaea was not the Church, but an Emperor who believed in the sun god as one of several deities, and who did not mind twisting Christianity to conform to his own ideas."

"As one Church Historian, Bernhard Lohse, writes in Motive im Glauben (Motivation for belief): 'Arius remind us that Jesus, as he is described in the Gospels, was not a God who walked this earth, but truly a human being. Of course, by his very humanity Jesus proved his full community with God'"

"Arius desired nothing else, but the Church chose a different road; as it had done so often, it condemned what was right and retained what was false" (Lehmann, Johannes. The Jesus Establishment. Garden CIty, New York: Doubleday & Company, Inc, 1974)

"The decision of the council did not terminate the controversy, but was rather only the beginning of it. A settlement found upon the Church by the strong hand of the emperor could not satisfy and was also of certain duration. It made the determination of the Christian faith dependent on imperial caprice and even on court intrigues." (Berkhof, Louis. The History of Christian Doctrines. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Barker Book House, 1981)


"The Council of Nicaea set many precedents. The Emperor called it, influenced its decision-making and used his civil power to give its decrees virtually status of imperial law. The Council introduced a new kind of orthodoxy, which for this time gave non-biblical terms critical importance. The Creed's own form of expression was influenced by the heresy outlawed..."

"Nicaea was followed by more than half century of discord and disorder in the Eastern CHurch , which at times spilled over into the West." (Dowley, Tim, et al. [editors]. Eerdmans' Handbook to the History of Christianity. Carmel, New York, USA: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1997)


On Nicene Creed 381 A.D
"It was not until the 4th century that the distinctness of the three taught by subordinationism and their unity taught by modalism were brought together in a single orthodox doctrine of one essence and three persons." Encyclopedia

"But Augustine also developed a trinitarian theme that was to become the most important dogmatic difference between the Eastern and Western Churches: the idea that the Holy Spirit proceeds both from the Father and from the Son (filioque) ,rather than from the Father only, as the East maintained." Encyclopedia


Others...

"Some nontrinitarians also find a link between the doctrine of the Trinity and the Egyptian Christian theologians of Alexandria, suggesting that Alexandrian theology, with its strong emphasis on the deity of Jesus, served to infuse Egypt's pagan religious heritage into Christianity. They charge the Church with adopting these Egyptian tenets after adapting them to Christian thinking by means of Greek philosophy.As evidence of this, they point to the widely acknowledged synthesis of Christianity with Platonic philosophy evident in Trinitarian formulas appearing by the end of the 3rd century. Hence, beginning with the Constantinian period, they allege, these pagan ideas were forcibly imposed on the churches as Catholic doctrine rooted firmly in the soil of Hellenism." source: wikipedia



Conclusion:

It is true that in the early centuries, Christians had many interpretation about Christ, one of the many example is the different formulas debated for the doctrine trinity (see above). Others believe that Christ is mere human, some says he is God and so on. Meaning, before the first council of Nicaea (325 A.D) every bishops/priests/teachers or whatsoever taught Christians different interpretations about Christ (see above) depends on their understanding about it. As to unite these divisions, Constantine I formed the first council of Nicaea (325 A.D), to "define" the relationship of God the father and Christ. Then, how they come up with the interpretation that the Father is of the same substance with Christ? And the result of all the debate, that the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit is equal and so on, IF, again, IF, they had different interpretations about it?

Then, i therefore conclude that it is because of the things that influenced them, like Hellenism, which is the spread of Greek culture and so on. And the influence of Plato, also called as Platonism/neoplatonism about the Logos. It is also the result of the wrong understanding quoting John's statement: "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God".

If trinity is really a belief that can be traced in the 1st century, that the early christians believed that Jesus is God, Father is God, Holy Spirit is God and so on, then there will be no heresies /different interpretations about Christ in the past!

The complete "definition" of this doctrine took them 100 years and more, and this is now what MOST CHRISTIANS believe nowadays. Remember: Christianity is a monotheistic religion, meaning: is the belief in the existence of one and only one god. (source: wikipedia)

The God in the Old Testament is also the God in New Testament. Ask yourself: Is it Christ the God in both Testament?

It is written in the bible that there is only ONE GOD, the FATHER.


Articles that may help you:
Who said that Jesus is God?
The original belief of the early christians to Jesus
Authoritative testimonies on Trinity

Apostasy: After the death of the Apostles

Lets make things clearer.

What the INC believe is that the church that was established by Christ in the 1st century that is, the Church of Christ or Christian Church, (the became "Catholic Church") was fallen to apostasy, meaning:

"Definition: 1- Turning or falling away from true gospel teachings as individuals or as a people." source: about.com

because of creating/formulating/adding/subtracting and so on to what is written in the Scriptures. And if the Catholic Church have doctrines that is not from the bible and not from the faith of the 1st century Christians, then it is indeed fallen away from the TRUE GOSPEL that is called APOSTASY.

But, sadly, many Catholics cannot accept that FACT. Because as they say, their church is the continuation of the church in the 1st century, what happened is apostolic succession, and so Christ has a promise.

Questions:
1.What apostolic succession? Does the doctrines of the Catholic Church "APOSTOLIC"? Meaning, FROM THE APOSTLES?
2. What promise? Did Christ said, whatever happened in his church it will never apostatized even if he and the apostles died?

A Catholic, named Ryan have asked us this in my post when and how apostasy occurred?:

"When has the so called Church APOSTASY became UNIVERSAL, COMPLETE and DEFINITIVE?"

FACTS:
1. Apostasy is a prophecy from the bible.
2. The INC teaches about Apostasy not his so called "Church Apostasy".
3. It is not the INC, the only Christian religion in the world believe that the church that was established by Christ had fallen to Apostasy.

The Apostasy occurred in Christ's church (that became "Catholic Church") is called Great Apostasy.

"The Great Apostasy is a term used by some religious groups to describe a general fallen state of traditional Christianity, especially the Papacy which allowed the traditional Roman mysteries and deities of solar monism such as Mithras and Sol Invictus and idol worship back into the church, and that in their opinion not representative of the faith founded by Jesus and his twelve Apostles: in short, that the church has fallen into apostasy." source: wikipedia

for more, click here.



Understanding Mt. 16:18
Catholic church's evidence of "Christ's promise":

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Mat. 16:18

But, what "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" mean?

“…. and death itself will not have any power over it.” Contemporary English bible

“….and the power of death will not be able to defeat it.” New century version

“…. and the forces of Hades will not overpower it.“Holman Christian standard bible

“….The power of death will not destroy it.” Worldwide English

"The word katiscuvsousin occurs only three times in the New Testament (Matt 16:18; Luke 21:36, 23:23), and it is derived from katiscuvw, which means “to win a victory over.” In other words, the power of death will not win a victory over the church. It makes sense that the antecedent for aujth'" refers to ejkklhsiva rather than pevtra since “church” is closer in proximity. Therefore, the church, as an eschatological community, will never die or come to an end." source: bible.org
The death that will not overcome the "church" is the death that is the full payment of sin, which is the second death in the lake of fire (Rom. 6:23; Rev. 20:14). It is from that death, that members (of Christ's church) are spared or saved on Judgment day. What Christ is saying is that there is resurrection of life:

"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." john 5:28-29

There are two kinds of resurrection: One that is to life and the other is to condemnation. Those who are included in the first resurrection of the dead are the fortunate ones who will be raised from the dead at the return of Christ and meet him in the air. Those who are still alive will no longer taste the first death, for they shall be caught up together with the ones resurrected first:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." I thess. 4:16-17

But where will we end up?

In the Holy City where we will have a life that is glorious:

"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” Rev. 21:1-4

Notice that in Holy City, there will be no more death. The ones can hope for this are the members (of Christ's church). So considering that the church of Christ will not be overcome by death, is it any wonder that we, members, give such great value to the Church? (Pasugo July 2011)


After the death of the Apostles
Again, what the INC believe is that the 1st century church of christ (the church that was established by christ) is the true church, and the faith of the 1st century christians is what should we believe, not the teachings/doctrines/dogmas and so on that the latter administration or those who took over the church after the apostles CREATED/FORMULATED.

Again, i will post about the prophecy concerning Apostasy:

“Let no one deceive you by any means; for that day will come, except there come a falling away first…” II thess 2:3

“…for it will not come until after the great apostasy…” (II thess 2:3 twentieth century new testament)

Wait, what's this? On twentieth century new testament it says about the GREAT APOSTASY, hmmmm...

"Don't you remember? I told you all this while I was with you. Yet there is something that keeps this from happening now, and you know what it is. At the proper time, then, the Wicked One will appear. The Mysterious Wickedness is already at work, but what is going to happen will not happen until the one who holds it back is taken out of the way." II thess. 2:5-7

You can notice here that in the time of the Apostles, wickedness is ALREADY AT WORK but there is something that KEEPS THAT FROM HAPPENING. and it will not happen UNTIL the one who HOLDS it will be taken out of the way.

Lets proceed if who's referring to this...

"I know that after I leave, fierce wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock. The time will come when some men from your own group will tell lies to lead the believers away after them." Acts 20:29-30

This is Apostle Paul, we can see who HOLDS or KEEPS THAT FROM HAPPENING.

What does Apostle Paul "after i leave" mean?

"As for me, the hour has come for me to be sacrificed; the time is here for me to leave this life." II tim. 4:6

What Apostle Paul is referring is his death, that's why whom HOLDS apostasy from happening are the APOSTLES.

"Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition)," (II thess. 2:3 amplified bible)

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Apostle James, son of Zebedee died A.D 44
Apostle Jude died A.D 65
Apostle Paul died A.D 67
Apostle Peter died A.D 67
and the last apostle to die, Apostle John died A.D 100

Just some of the 12 Apostles, all died in the 1st century. Most of the teachings of the Catholic Church only showed up in 2nd century and beyond.

"Doctrine was further refined by a series of influential theologians and teachers, known collectively as the Church Fathers. From the year 100 onward, proto-orthodox teachers like Ignatius of Antioch and Irenaeus defined Catholic teaching in stark opposition to other things, such as Gnosticism. In the first few centuries of its existence, the Church formed its teachings and traditions into a systematic whole under the influence of theological apologists such as Pope Clement I, Justin Martyr and Augustine of Hippo." source: wikipedia

200 AD	Immersion of infants who are dying, but considered sinless. (Tertullian V.12)
250 AD	North Africa region is first to practice infant baptism and reduced the age of baptism from minors to all newborns. This is opposed by other regions.
257 AD	Baptism by sprinkling for adults instead of immersion first used as an exception for those on sick beds, but it caused great dispute.
300 AD	Prayers for the dead
320 AD	Special dress code of the clergy in worship
325 AD	At the general council of Nice, 325, it was proposed indeed, probably by the Western bishop Hosius, to forbid entirely the marriage of priests; but the motion met with strong opposition, and was rejected.
325 AD	The date for Easter was set.
379 AD	Praying to Mary & Saints. (prayers of Ephraim Syrus)
385 AD	In the West, the first prohibition of clerical marriage, which laid claim to universal ecclesiastical authority, proceeded in 385 from the Roman church in the form of a decretal letter of the bishop Siricius to Himerius, bishop of Tarragona in Spain.
389 AD	Mariolatry begins with Gregory Nazianzen, who mentions in a eulogy, how Justina had besought the virgin Mary to protect her virginity.
400 AD	Impossibility of apostasy or once saved always saved, (Augustine XII.9)
416 AD	Infant baptism by immersion commanded of all infants (Council Of Mela, Austin was the principal director)
430 AD	Exhalation of Virgin Mary: "Mother of God" first applied by the Council of Ephesus
502 AD	Special dress code of the Clergy all the time.
500 AD	The "Habit" of Nuns (Black gowns with white tunics)
519 AD	Lent
526 AD	Extreme Unction
593 AD	The Doctrine of Purgatory popularized from the Apocrypha by Gregory the Great
600 AD	First use of Latin in worship (Gregory I)
Beginning of the Orthodox/Roman Catholic church as we know it today in its present organization.
607 AD	First Pope: Boniface III is the first person to take the title of "universal Bishop" by decree of Emperor Phocas.
608 AD	Pope Boniface IV. turns the Pantheon in Rome into a temple of Mary ad martyres: the pagan Olympus into a Christian heaven of gods.
670 AD	Instrumental music: first organ by Pope Vitalian
709 AD	Kissing of Pope Constantine’s feet
753 AD	Baptism by sprinkling for those on sick beds officially accepted.
787 AD	Worship of icons and statue approved (2nd council of Nicea)
787 AD	Rome (Latin) and Constantinople (Greek) part ways and begin the drift towards complete split, resulting in two denominations emerging in 1054 AD.
965 AD	Baptism of bells instituted by Pope John XIII
850 AD	Burning of Holy Candles
995 AD	Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV
998 AD	Good Friday: fish only and the eating-red meat forbidden
1009 AD	Holy water
1022 AD	Penance
1054 AD	Roman Catholic church breaks away from the Orthodox church
1054 AD	Roman Catholics officially embrace instrumental music, Orthodox reject instrumental music down to the present time.
1079 AD	Celibacy enforced for priests, bishops, presbyters (Pope Gregory VII)
1090 AD	Rosary beads: invented by Peter the Hermit
1095 AD	Instrumental music
1190 AD	Sale of Indulgences or "tickets to sin" (punishment of sin removed)
1215 AD	Transubstantiation by Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council
1215 AD	Auricular Confession of sins to priests instituted by Pope Innocent III, (Lateran Council)
1215 AD	Mass a Sacrifice of Christ
1217 AD	Adoration and Elevation of Host: ie. communion bread (Pope Honrius III)
1230 AD	Ringing bells at Mass
1251 AD	The Scapular, the brown cloak worn by monks invented by Simon Stock
1268 AD	Priestly power of absolution
1311 AD	Baptism by sprinkling accepted as the universal standard instead of immersion for all, not just the sick. (Council of Ravenna)
1414 AD	Laity no longer offered Lord's cup at communion (Council of Constance)
1439 AD	Purgatory a dogma by the Council of Florence (see 593 AD)
1439 AD	Doctrine of Seven Sacraments affirmed
1480 AD	The Inquisition (of Spain)
1495 AD	Papal control of marriage rights
1534 AD	Order of Jesuits founded by Loyola
1545 AD	Man-made tradition of church made equal to Bible (Council of Trent)
1545 AD	Apocryphal books added to Bible (Council of Trent)
1546 AD	Justification by human works of merit
1546 AD	Mass universally said in Latin (see 600 AD)
1547 AD	Confirmation
1560 AD	Personal opinions of Pope Pius IV imposed as the official creed
1864 AD	Syllabus Errorum [Syllabus of Errors] proclaimed that "Catholic countries" could not tolerate other religions, (no freedom of religion), conscience, separation of church and State condemned, asserted the Pope's temporal authority over all civil rulers (Ratified by Pope Pius IX and Vatican Council) condemned
1870 AD	Infallibility of Pope (Vatican council)
1908 AD	All Catholics should be christened into the church
1930 AD	Public Schools condemned by Pope Pius XII (see 1864 AD)
1950 AD	Sinners prayer, invented by Billy Sunday and made popular by Billy Graham. (Some Catholics now use this)
1950 AD	Assumption of the body of the Virgin Mary into heaven shortly after her death. (Pope Pius XII)
1954 AD	Immaculate conception of Mary proclaimed by Pope Pius XII
1995 AD	The use of girls in the traditional alter boy duties
1996 AD	Catholics can believe in Evolution (Pope John Paul II)

source: bible.ca


You can also look on my post Still the original church?


Apostasy of the 1st century church of Christ
Let's go back on the argument of a Catholic named Ryan,

"When has the so called Church APOSTASY became UNIVERSAL, COMPLETE and DEFINITIVE?"

He accused us of not answering his simple question even though the comments on that post reached 200+ comments! Look here.

First of all, he wanted us to answer him by giving an exact date or year when this happened, about "universal, complete and definitive apostasy" of the church, where i already answered about this in my post. I said, the apostasy happened AFTER THE DEATH OF THE APOSTLES.

But still, he complained that his question still unanswered. I said to him: why do you wanted us to answer "WHEN THE CHURCH APOSTASY became universal, complete and definitive" if we dont have that doctrine in the first place?

I already confirmed in that post:

"Walang IISANG petsa ang pagtalikod ng Iglesia Katolika. Bawat pagbabago sa aral ay PAGTALIKOD."(There is no exact date on Catholic church's apostasy. Every changes in the teaching is apostasy.) Pasugo issue march-april 1980

Just look again the contents above (Catholic doctrines), how can we determine the exact date or year when it happened if in the first place, changes/adding of doctrines does not occurred in just 1 day or 1 year?

I asked him these questions for his argument end(but he is afraid to answer until now!):

1.Kung ipinag utos ba ng papa sa roma o mga emperador doon na sumamba sa rebulto at larawan, ang utos ba na yon ay sa simbahan lang sa roma??? (If the Pope or Emperor in Rome will command to worship idols and images, is that command only for the church in Rome?)

2. Hindi ba iyon pambuong kautusan ibg sabhin para sa lahat ng katoliko sa buong mundo? (Is it not for the catholics in the world?)

3. Kung mag kaka isa kayo na sambahin ang rebulto at larawan(dahil ito ay naging credo na) ang susunod ba nito ay yung mga nag utos lang? (emperador o ang papa) o ang buong katoliko sa buong mundo? (If catholics will be united in worshiping idols and images because it is in the creed for example, the ones who will follow this command is only the emperor or pope, OR the catholics in the world?)

4. Ang church ay pwede ring tumukoy sa members,dba, ang apostasy ay ang pagtalikod sa tunay na aral,dba, kung ipinag utos na halimbawa na sambahin ang rebulto at larawan, at ang lahat ng myembro ay sumunod dito,at sapagkat itoy taliwas sa utos ng dyos, hindi pa rin ba ito pwedeng sabihin na "the church(members) had fallen to apostasy?" (the word "church" can also refer to "members", right?, Apostasy means turning away from the true gospel, right?, If it is commanded to worship idols and images, and the whole members will follow to this, and because it contradicts God's commandment, is it not right to say "that the church (members) had fallen to apostasy"?)

5. Nung 2nd centry wala na si kristo, wala ng apostol,(sa pagkakaalam ko) at ang mga lider na nito ay ang mga sumunod nakung sino-sino, church fathers, at emerador, ibig sabihin sila na ang may hawak sa CHURCH, kung mag uutos sila ng mga doktrina na hindi naman galing sa mga apostol at kay kristo,at ang iba pay labag sa utos na nasa bibliya, hindi pa rin ba natin pwedeng sabihing "the CHURCH has fallen to apostasy?" (apostasy means being lead way from the TRUE FAITH.) (In the 2nd century, Christ and Apostles had already died, and the next administration who took over the church [church fathers, emperors and etc.] If they will command us to follow a doctrine that is not from the Apostles and Christ, and others even violates teachings from the bible, is it still not right to say "that the church had fallen to apostasy"?)

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He avoided these questions, why? Because it answers his question about his so called CHURCH APOSTASY that became universal and so on...

I also made a challenge for him, a challenge that i asked to catholic defenders (like Catholic defender2000, and A priest Fr. Abe) and to others but still no one CAN DO:

"If the Catholic CHurch is still the original church based on doctrines,list atleast 10 or 5 main doctrines and/or traditions of the church with the date IT BEGAN?"

How about you, CAN YOU???^^



Strict teachings from the BIBLE

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." Revelation 22:18-19

"It is no use for them to worship me, because they teach human rules as though they were my laws!" Mat. 15:9

So, worshiping God is useless if youre following a teaching not of God, but from humans. And if a church teaches doctrines that are not from the bible, and especially violates commandments of God therefore you will receive not blessings, but punishment from God!